James Fee GIS Blog

61 responses so far ↓

• 1 Kevin // Jun 20, 2008 at 8:26 am

  NGA is started to use GoePDFs. ERDC have a tool out right now (for DoD only) that allows GeoPDF to be imported into ArcMap. I believe 9.3 has native support for geoPDF but I could be wrong (still on 9.2).

  I have work with a few in my job so far I like them. I am not an expert and don’t use the too often but the key things that I like:

  1. Compression: We can loaded a 1GB aerial photo into a geoPDF and have the end pdf file be about 400MB. And it keeps it’s reference.
  2. Simple transfer: Instead of sending 50+ files (say 10 shapefiles + 1 mxd) to someone need a map, all the data and layout is stored in a single file.
  3.Limit data transfer: Instead of sending a whole layer, you can send a subset of the layer quicky.
  4.PDFs generally make it thru email firewalls alot easier than other file formats.

• 2 glenn // Jun 20, 2008 at 8:55 am

  Well, it is a useful format for large agencies to use to distribute and share their information.. think of the USGS serving up free GeoPDF formats of all their topos… would you rather have an SDTS format data file? This now enables any recreational user to easily grab a topo and use it immediately… that’s just for starts… I’ve used it loads and rarely use full blown Adobe for anything. I think asking this question James is akin to asking why would anyone use DWF… my 2 cents. FYI, you can get more details on it in this piece I did up last year - http://www.gisuser.com/content/view/11575/28/

• 3 James Fee // Jun 20, 2008 at 10:16 am

  @Kevin, thanks for that info, that really does show value in why someone might choose GeoPDF.

  glenn: I don’t buy the DWF argument. That is a format created by Autodesk for using with their applications. I wouldn’t expect to share a DWF file with anyone outside the AutoCAD ecosystem.

  Look the GeoPDF format may be the best thing since the abacus, but unless it is better explained to everyone why it is useful (beyond the generalization I see in the current marketing materials) it isn’t going anywhere.

• 4 glenn // Jun 20, 2008 at 10:45 am

  i guess the key point they make is that anyone with Adobe Acrobat reader can work with and read a GeoPDF and view your data. A total novice can look at the data, don’t have to download and learn a new viewer (like a DWF viewing tool) and they can see attributes and information that is written out of ArcGIS and others. They seem to be scoring loads of government contracts so I have to assume its pretty useful… then there’s the data compression aspects etc… looks to me like their recent blog post describes some of the compelling reasons for using it.. you think you can handle all this simply by using Adobe solutions?

• 5 Patrick Graves // Jun 20, 2008 at 10:57 am

  The why is not so much technical as it is functional. Using GeoPDF is about the easiest way possible to get a custom map to the guy in the truck or the CEO in the board room - to the soldier in the field or the general back at headquarters.

  When you combine GeoPDF, Adobe Reader and the TerraGo tools, you have a pretty powerful end user experience that is readily accepted by the non-GIS users.

  As noted by Glenn, a great example of how compelling the solution is the USGS. Last year, when they made over 60,000 quad sheets available for download in GeoPDF, they experienced over a ten fold increase in demand for the maps - ten fold. And the uptake was immediate. Less than 6 months into the initiative, I think they were getting more than 50,000 downloads a month. Also, do a Google search on Ray Caputo and see what he is doing with GeoPDF at the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers. Good stuff.

  GeoPDF is a great way to extend the reach of your GIS organization. It’s easy to get useful tools in the hands of your end users. So my question is: What use is all the hard work that goes in to creating a map if it can only be shared within the GIS department?

  P

• 6 Brian Timoney // Jun 20, 2008 at 11:07 am

  James:

  I’m not qualified to say yea or nay on GeoPDF functionality.

  But I will say that having looked at the videos for Acrobat 9, I as a taxpayer would prefer the USGS to serve those topos up to me as “normal” PDFs, since there will be basic measuring capability, etc. A larger point is that all of the functionality of GeoPDFs that would appeal to the GIS crowd, makes it inappropriate for a mass audience who doesn’t want to deal with a lot of unfamiliar buttons, let alone a separate plug-in download.

  Further, it is clear that what Adobe is doing with the next release is enlarging the concept of “PDF” well beyond merely a file format but also as a repository for different document types: Word, Excel, videos, Flash apps, etc. One might well see a single PDF with an interactive Flash map bundled with its source data in an Excel spreadsheet, along with an executive summary as a Word doc. Multiple streams of communication in a single “document”: sounds compelling to me *cough*.

  In short, the concept of a PDF has always been about passing information around, and with this latest release, that information isn’t necessarily confined to your Daddy’s PDF document.

  Finally, it’s worth pointing out that this blog’s readership represents the 0.5% that loves new technology and new acronyms: leveraging the comfort level of the “PDF” brand amongst the other 99.5% of the world seems to be a rich vein to mine.

  Brian

• 7 FantomPlanet // Jun 20, 2008 at 11:34 am

  Well, haven’t I said enough times “geoPDF is where maps go to die?” It’s an “end-of-the-line” format in my line of work. And I don’t disagree w/ anyone trying to defend it.

  I would look forward to the new Adobe PDF as “just” a PDF. ArcGIS 9.3 is going to support this new format. So, why do I need TerraGO? They might have some additional capablity, but do I really require it? Depends. Someone at TerraGo better start explaining, otherwise.

  And, Brian is right about that 99.5% stuff.

• 8 Patrick Graves // Jun 20, 2008 at 11:42 am

  Brian,

  GeoPDFs are PDFs. The only difference is they were created by TerraGo software and optimized for the end user experience in Adobe Acrobat/Reader. When you get a copy of Acrobat/Reader 9, you’ll find that you Adobe’s geospatial tools work on the USGS GeoPDFs.

  You still have to download the TerraGo toolbar to get advanced features like GPS connectivity or if you are on Acrobat/Reader 7 or 8.

  P

• 9 Adam Estrada // Jun 20, 2008 at 12:06 pm

  Brian,
  It’s true that the new functionality being released with Acrobat 9.0 will be phenomenal! Check out the latest and greatest Acrobat.com for starters and see how you can upload your PDFs and collaborate on them with up to 3 other people, for free! James has mentioned how cool Yahoo Maps! is and let me tell you, their Flash API is easy to use and whoops…you can compile a swf for free using the FLEX SDK and then embed it in to a PDF. What does this mean? Like you said, you will be able to create a complete mapping “portfolio” that also allows dynamic widgets to be embedded, charts and graphs added as pages, and whatever tabular data you need to relate to your data set. All this is a single file would make for a powerful mapping application!

  FantomPlanet: Why do you need TerraGo? Simple…this is a company that specializes in the creation and dissemination of the GeoPDF. I would expect that with all the buzz and banter about all this next generation mapping technology, folks will stick it out and wait to see what is coming next. Like I’ve said before…the more Adobe spatial PDFs that are in circulation, the more opportunity for serious advancement in the technology. Carpe diem!

  A

• 10 Patrick Graves // Jun 20, 2008 at 12:31 pm

  FantomPlanet. No disrespect intended, but you coudn’t be any more wrong about GeoPDF being where maps go to die. It’s where maps go to be used.

  GeoPDF may not be as slick or as sexy as Google Earth, but a lot of people use Adobe Reader (900 million according to Adobe) and it is a perfect platform to present cartographic representations of your GIS data to end users.

  I think GeoPDF has caused a lot of GIS guys anxiety because they seem to think “What good is it? I can’t do my GIS magic with it”. But, the people that really need GeoPDFs are not the GIS guys - they’re the non-GIS users. The guys don’t have any idea what to do with an MXD file or an IMG file and they certainly don’t know how to use complicated GIS tools. They just want a map. They want to see what you’ve done, interact with it and comment on it.

  I think you’ll find when you close the loop of Adobe document collaboration with the GIS department, plenty of value comes back to you.

  P

• 11 Leonard Rosenthol // Jun 20, 2008 at 3:24 pm

  One other point to add to this interesting discussion is that while GeoPDF is about 2D maps - the new functionality in Acrobat/Reader 9 supports both 2D _AND_ 3D mapping coordinates. So bringing Google Earth-like data imaging into your PDFs is here…

  Leonard Rosenthol
  Adobe Systems

• 12 wrong qestion // Jun 20, 2008 at 3:41 pm

  “I as a taxpayer would prefer the USGS to serve those topos up to me as “normal” PDFs”

  I have seen maps that the USGS distributed during the California wild fires which were used with laptops out in the field. Emergency responders used the GeoPDF toolbar to mark up the pdf with fire perimters and notes and exprted the data as a shapefile from Adobe Acrobat GeoPDF toolbar back to
  the office at night. Those shapefiles were then loaded into a geodatabase and subsequent updates to emergency response maps in the area. Without a georeferenced pdf, this would not have been possible.These are the sort of reasons USGS is distributing georeferenced pdf’s. .

  So, the real question is not whether the gis community needs georeferenced pdfs, it is why do we need to pay TerraGo ridiculous money to license this functionality. Not to mention with that cost comes little development capability. $15,000 for Map2PDF for ArcGIS Server.

  BTW - enough with the google earth crap, that is not gis.

• 13 Mike D // Jun 20, 2008 at 6:45 pm

  GeoPDF has been very successful for us. We publish a regularly updated environmental hazards map that, on the surface, is fairly simple and easy to understand. With the additional object data we includ,e our Environmental Restoration staff access to a large volume of critical information that would be overwhelming if labeled on the map.

  Plus you can load up a basic laptop with Acrobat reader, the GeoPDF extension and a $99 etrex with a serial cable and you’ve got a simple moving -map for navigation.

• 14 bender // Jun 23, 2008 at 2:22 am

  who cares? you need an extension for creating the docs, you need a plugin four your reader, it only works with adobe.

• 15 Leonard Rosenthol // Jun 23, 2008 at 6:56 am

  Bender - that’s actually part of the point of our work with Acrobat 9…

  You NO LONGER need an extension for creating the docs and you NO LONGER have to rely on an Adobe-only plugin.

  The details are PUBLIC AND OPEN (like the rest of PDF (now ISO 32000)) and any 3rd party PDF creation tool and viewer that wishes can implement them.

  Leonard

• 16 Ray Caputo // Jun 23, 2008 at 11:05 am

  As a creator of large amounts of GeoPDFs and notice I said creator because as a GIS Professional with 20+ years in the GIS/Mapping field I have little need for GeoPDF but almost every solider I deal with is not a GIS Professional and the GeoPDF is to quote a 1LT “a literal lifesaver”. Just about anyone reading this is a GIS Pro so remember GeoPDFs are maps for masses, maps for non-mappers, maps for people who do not have big honking GIS/Mapping software on their “tricked” out PCs. Do me a favor ask your mailman (mailperson) next time you see them and ask them if they know what a GEOTIFF is when they say no ask them if they know what a PDF is I can bet you they say yes. That is what we are after johnny lunch pail needs a map too not just GIS experts. Once we GIS experts make the maps it would be nice to know that they are out there for anyone with Adobe Reader (just reader in 9 or the TerraGo plug-in for 9 and below) to see the map in all its geospatial glory. As for the PDF Map format it is lets say GeoPDF Lite as it has no where near the functionality of a GeoPDF at this time. TerraGo and Adobe are working to make PDF Map equal to GeoPDF then GeoPDF goes away (?) but TerraGo does not as people will need to do more things with the PDF Map then Adobe is willing to put in their software (the concepts of plug-ins and extensions lives on). For info on what the US Army is doing with GeoPDF (and soon PDF Map) see http://www.tec.army.mil/programs.html and click on either side of the GeoPDF Brief/GeoPDF Fact Sheet link.

  Ray Caputo
  Geographer
  U.S. Army Corps of Engineers
  Topographic Engineering Center

• 17 Joseph Wallis // Jun 24, 2008 at 8:49 am

  9.3 supports geoPDF natively. TerraGo needs to get a new business model.

• 18 Ray Caputo // Jun 24, 2008 at 9:31 am

  Who cares what software you create a geospatially aware PDF with, if you want to do more then the very few thing Adobe allows you to do in 9 you will use TerraGo software. When I say “more then the very few thing Adobe allows” I mean: coordinates in the Military Grid Reference System (MGRS) and the United States National Grid (USNG) [mandatory for the Army and the Marines], an automatic coordinate readout [Adobe tool turns off with many common menu picks], support of Lambert Conformal Conic and Transverse Mercator Projections, measure area and length with Reader, use with GPS receiver, importing/exporting geospatial data with Reader etc. These “few” things are important to the lowest and highest common denominator in the Army and Adobe will most likely add some of these functions to their software over time but I know that measuring area and length with Reader will most likely never happen. There will be people in the world, maybe even in the Army, who will not need to use TerraGo software ever again now that PDF Map and its tools are out but most of the people I deal with will want to use TerraGo tools also. TerraGo has tools also that even an expert GIS user can use such as their raster converter tool that gives you the ability to take geo’ed file i.e. GEOTIFF, MrSID, NITF, ADRG, CADRG, IMG and CIB and make GeoPDFs out of them (ask USGS how I created almost 60,000 GeoPDFs, from the GeoTIFFs they sent me, over a weekend), the MapAssembler tool to mosaic multiple GeoPDFs into a seamless view for map background and a DoD only tool (at this time) to bring in GeoPDF into ArcGIS for map background (Army uses it for better looking map backgrounds since our GeoPDFs have a better resolution then the standard data files available for use) and Map2PDF for ArcGIS – even though ArcGIS 9.3 makes a PDF Map the TerraGo extension makes GeoPDF that works better (try assess the object data from a PDF Map); I would say about half the ESRI extensions out there do something ESRI software already does but does it better. As I say to the PhDs I work with; get out of your GIS/Mapping hobbit hole and see what the rest of world is doing with maps (little or nothing because they lack the equipment and software).

• 19 glenn // Jun 24, 2008 at 9:39 am

  re “wrong question” above… wow, too funny to see the old “I’m a tax payer card” regarding this. Recall GeoPDF is intended to help the non GIS-savvy person use your maps, that’s what it does. Oh, and FYI, as a tax payer would you rather simply use SDTS format data… WTF is that??? Also, someone should also look into why over the years your tax dollars are being wasted on agencies like the USGS and others buying their own data (in SDTS) from online data stores (some names I refuse to mention). I’ve seen it and what a freaking waste! WOW

• 20 James Fee // Jun 24, 2008 at 10:15 am

  @Ray:
  

  but I know that measuring area and length with Reader will most likely never happen

  Adobe Acrobat 9 will allow users to measure length and area.

• 21 Adam Estrada // Jun 24, 2008 at 10:28 am

  I believe that this “extended” functionality is going to be available in standard Acrobat Reader as long as the PDF has been touched by APEX or another Adobe product that will enable it. Further clarification on this should be made.

• 22 James Fee // Jun 24, 2008 at 10:34 am

  Well sure Adam. In the context that you need something to create either a GeoPDF or whatever the heck Adobe is calling their functionality.

  But Adobe is putting the ability to measure in the Reader application by default.

  Your point though that you still need to either buy APEX or have some sort of software that creates them (ArcGIS I guess) is valid.

• 23 Ray Caputo // Jun 24, 2008 at 10:40 am

  FYI: Adobe will NOT be putting the ability to measure in the Reader application by default; the code for measuring is an Acrobat only function and will appear in Reader only, as I was told by Adobe, if Adobe changes the way they do business or something like that.

• 24 James Fee // Jun 24, 2008 at 11:01 am

  It says on their website it will be available in Reader.

  

  You do need PDF that enables the ability to measure of course, but a user of Reader doesn’t need to install anything beyond Reader 9.

• 25 Patrick Graves // Jun 24, 2008 at 11:36 am

  Measurement is an enabled feature in Reader 9. It’s not on by default, but can be turned on.
  With a seat of Acrobat Professional Extended or with the Adobe Life Cycle Server products, you can embed digital rights into a geospatial PDF and turn on the measure tool when opened by the Reader 9 user.

• 26 Ray Caputo // Jun 24, 2008 at 11:41 am

  Well you got me on that one; I was off on my thinking. What I should have said was that if the file (PDF Map or GeoPDF) is not Reader Enabled then the measuring tool will not work in Reader.

  Sorry for any misinformation or confusion I may or may have caused.

• 27 James Fee // Jun 24, 2008 at 11:46 am

  Ray: It will be interesting to see how many ways one can create these geospatial PDFs. The ability to measure is wonderful as we can all agree, but how people will create these PDFs is another thing. Requiring expensive software is a sure way to make people not use the features.

• 28 James Graham // Jun 24, 2008 at 1:03 pm

  @ All:

  Really glad this post came along. Thanks for the informative discussion.

• 29 Joseph Wallis // Jun 24, 2008 at 4:53 pm

  “I would say about half the ESRI extensions out there do something ESRI software already does but does it better.”

  Really? sorry that I can’t agree. I know there are lots of good extensions out there that do things ESRI doesn’t even do, but I think the average person who gets functionality out of the box for no additional cost will find it hard to shell dollars for something that provides incremental benefit. Plus, ESRI does a (good) job of responding to customer feedback and rewarding customers under maintenance with the requested functionality in future versions. Which goes back to the what James said in the original blog post “TerraGo really needs do a better job of getting out “the why” to use GeoPDF”. If they don’t get their message out there, how are people generating geoPDFs in ArcGIS know there is something “better”? Object data for instance…you make it sound like ESRI is severaly deficient, but it works just fine for me. I’m guessing others will agree and see no need to buy something extra.

  The sword cuts both ways though, and for the ultra low end users that geoPDFs serve, I think ESRI cannibalized some ArcPublisher extension sales.

• 30 Dino Ravnic // Jun 24, 2008 at 5:56 pm

  I think that GeoPDF could be great vector format for GIS. Maybe as an exchange format?

  As an expert in (web) GIS technologies I can say that there is no future for PDF in web applications segment although it’s possible to load PDF documents inside web browsers.

  Considering geospatial web applications we have a framework based on Adobe Flash that could take web mapping in new direction by vector rendering: http://www.flashnavigator.net

• 31 Joseph Wallis // Jun 24, 2008 at 7:30 pm

  An exchange format? From what I’ve used of it I don’t see it as that. It is just an end user map for people who REALLY don’t know how to use something as simple as ArcReader. But if you figure out a way to extract all of the data in a geoPDF and use it in another GIS, let me know.

• 32 shawn // Jun 24, 2008 at 10:09 pm

  What about using ArcPublisher / ArcReader? One of the nice things about Publisher is that you can Publish content that is still connected to live data if you want. You can also control the length of time an end user can use a certain published map.

  What advantage does TerraGO have over ArcReader?

  My initial concern with TerraGO is that it sits in the middle and has to keep up with ArcGIS AND Adobe. A hard place to be. Hard to stay in sync.

  Reading posts here it seems that with Adobe Acrobat Reader 9 that you will not have to download the TerraGO plug in to work with GeoPDFs. If this is true than I can see the advantage.

  So then you end up using TerraGO to create the GeoPDF. However also reading the posts it seems that ArcGIS 9.3 will have the ability to create GeoPDF. So that leaves TerraGO in the cold.

  I do know that folks in my office have not had an easy time implementing TerraGO, especially when it comes to heavy use of imagery in a map book type setting. Lots of patches and loading things in the correct order - a bit of a pain to say the least.

• 33 kd // Jun 25, 2008 at 2:16 am

  Having produced and used GeoPDF files I definitely see the theoretical (!) advantage for our customers and was originally very enthusiastic. Unfortunately, it has been unpopular for them and us for three main reasons:

  1. The performance was terrible if high-resolution orthophotos were embedded. Embedding the data in a normal PDF was fine. Just having vector data we also got nice performance from GeoPDF.

  2. Installing a plugin is a major hassle for most of our clients (e.g. big utility companies), because their computers are locked down and installing new software is problematic. So the advantages of GeoPDF could not be used.

  3. The support from TerraGO was very bad. Whenever we found a bug and informed them about it, they came back with an excuse. We regularly showed them that their “work-around” (mostly saying “it works in map2pdf for Geomedia”) didn’t work either. We used both map2pdf for ArcGIS and Geomedia.

  The situation might have changed now because we abandoned GeoPDF because of these problems and that was about a year (?) ago. I really look forward to PDF Map for those reasons.

• 34 Ray Caputo // Jun 25, 2008 at 4:05 am

  Not sure how many ways I can say the same thing so I will stop saying it [here].

  I will leave it up to TerraGo to defend itself but leave you with this thought without TerraGo creating the idea of the geospatially aware PDF and working with Adobe recently there would be no GeoPDF/geoPDF/PDF Map etc.

  The U.S. Army views the GeoPDF as a revolutionary way to get our map data to ALL soldiers not just the lucky ones with GIS/Mapping software.

• 35 Joseph Wallis // Jun 25, 2008 at 5:38 am

  Well that’s not necessarily true. That’s like saying that without Microsoft we wouldn’t have something like Windows.

  As I and others have pointed out, TerraGo is in a bad spot. But I guess they can always count on their Geomedia audience….until Intergraph decides to include something similiar.

• 36 David Davis // Jun 25, 2008 at 5:48 am

  @Ray Caputo: No sure why you are so defensive. I’m sure in your controlled environment, GeoPDF works very well. I’m actually envious of you because I do want to use GeoPDF with my clients, but the reality is they reject it every time we propose it.

• 37 Patrick Graves // Jun 25, 2008 at 6:35 am

  Guys,

  TerraGo’s going to keep working on GeoPDF and tools that enrich the end user experience. A lot of exciting things are happening at TerraGo. Bridging the gap between the Adobe Reader user and the GIS department is TerraGo’s focus and we’ll continue to innovate in this space.

  Look for more to come in the next few months.

  P

• 38 Casual GeoPDF User // Jun 25, 2008 at 7:20 am

  I think people are way too defensive here on both sides. Everyone knows the limitations of GeoPDF and its acceptance in the marketplace. It looks at least to me like TerraGo is trying to address some of this (its like they woke up a couple weeks ago or something).

  What TerraGo needs for GeoPDF to take off is ESRI/Intergraph/MapInfo to integrate GeoPDF into their basic software. That would surely raise visibility. Or heck, get Google to use it.

• 39 Joseph Wallis // Jun 26, 2008 at 7:17 am

  that’s only half of it. After the majors integrate GeoPDF into their software, TerraGo has to convince people to spend extra dough to do the same things ESRI and others do out of the box. It will take some strong convincing.

• 40 Christopher Blough // Jun 26, 2008 at 9:22 am

  After reading these comments, I would like to show the evidence I’m basing my purchase / no-purchase decision for Map2PDF for ArcGIS.

  ESRI announced that 9.3 will export PDF’s which users with Adobe Acrobat Reader 9 to do the following at:

  http://www.esri.com/software/arcgis/about/distribute-maps.html
  ———————————————————
  The geospatial functionality available to Adobe Acrobat users when they use a PDF depends on which Acrobat 9 product they are using and how the PDF was generated:

  Adobe 9 Reader: Coordinate readout and find XY can be performed on PDFs exported from ArcMap. Measurement and markup can also be performed in Adobe 9 Reader if the PDF exported from ArcMap has first been resaved using Adobe Acrobat 9 Pro or Pro Extended to enable that functionality.

  Adobe Acrobat 9 Standard or Pro: Coordinate readout, find XY, measurement, and markup.

  Acrobat 9 Pro Extended: Coordinate readout, find XY, measurement and markup. Advanced authoring capabilities allow shapefiles, GeoTiffs, and Jpeg2000 to be added to maps.
  ——————————————————-

  So - you will need to save the PDF you export from ArcGIS 9.3 in Adobe Professional or Pro Extended to use the measurement and markup tools. If you already have Adobe’s latest software you are good to go!

  BTW - Adobe Acrobat Professional Extended 9.0 is currently $654 at CDW. My government quotation for Map2PDF for ArcGIS 9.x from TerraGo was $1,373.18 including one year of software maintenance.

  I think I’m going to upgrade my Adobe Professional 7.0 to Professional Extended 9.0 and see how ArcGIS 9.3 works out.

• 41 Patrick Graves // Jun 26, 2008 at 10:07 am

  Just to clarify a few points.

  1) Adobe is putting georegistration in the PDF spec.

  2) ESRI is finally supporting geospatial PDF.

  3) There are no ESRI tools that enhance the end user experience when working with a geospatial PDF .

  4) Adobe has built only minimal base line geospatial capabilities into Acrobat/Reader.

  5) TerraGo has been building tools that work with geospatial PDFs for many years. It’s the focus of their business.

  Many current features available in TerraGo tools are simply not available from ESRI or Adobe.

  Some of the unique features are: GPS tracking multiple coordinate displayUS National Grid (and other coordinate systems as well) support measuring distance, area, azimuth and magnetic bearingKML import/exportshape file import/export GPX supportforms and geospatial javascript integrationdecollar and mosaic tiled GeoPDFs support in Acrobat/Reader 7, 8 and 9

  Creating a GeoPDF is more than just the file format. It’s about giving your end users access to those tools.

  P

• 42 Christopher Blough // Jun 26, 2008 at 1:52 pm

  I’m curious as to how ESRI 9.3 will be supporting the object/attribute data in its PDF export. By default, this object data must be exported to the output PDF file natively in ArcMap for this to happen. Therefore, ESRI must somehow be addressing this.

  ESRI Announcement:

  “ArcGIS 9.3 has new and improved functionality for exporting maps to Adobe PDF format. Feature attributes can be included in exported PDFs and accessed interactively by Adobe Reader users with the Object Data tool. Group layer and data frame hierarchies are now reflected in Adobe PDF layer lists. “

  ESRI claims that object attributes will be supported. However, I don’t see anything in the What’s New in 9.3 announcement to describe how this will happen. Guess we’ll have to find out when the software arrives.

• 43 Defense GIS User // Jun 27, 2008 at 10:03 am

  Very intersting thread.

  I saw the GeoPDF products at their Federal User Conference (only 100 , is that not a casual gathering??) last month. There were a couple of very intersting user presentations there. I have used the Map2PDF products to create GeoPDFs and have tried to understand the TerraGo position with Adobe and their geospatial PDF. TerraGo says they worked with Adobe to build the geospatial PDF, but if that is the case, then why do the TerraGo products not read/ingest the Adobe 9.0 PDFs , nor create them like ESRI does? Also, it seems that the ESRI/Adobe PDFs support many of the international projections that global organizations require, wheras the GeoPDF product is lacking in support for many of these (for us very limited support for continental Europe). From talking with TerraGo staff at the conference, it was understood that Adobe/ESRI did this without Terrago’s involvement. If this is true, is there really a future for a little company like TerraGo?

  I also met an end user at the Conference that tried to use the TerraGo raster product only to find out it does not support something as simple as State Plane, which he said to support local US governments should be a requirement.

  One of the neatest technologies I saw was their GeoPDF Mobile. This looks very robust and could be a hit for field users. I was a bit confused on the brochure I picked up (I no longer have this for specifics) as TerraGo appears to have implemented some 3rd party type libraries for reading/using PDFs instead of Adobe. Is this the reason that Adobe worked closer with ESRI instead of TerraGo? This mobile support could be a decent market for TerraGo, but from speaking with the women at the demo table, it looks/sounds like they are positioning this to compete with ESRI’s ArcPad (are you reading this Mr. Dangermond?). Time will tell if this is a good approach, but the technology does look very promising.

  Others are correct that there are differences, but for many users, the Adobe/ESRI PDF will be sufficient, and it is FREE. The GeoPDF toolbar will not read the Adobe/ESRI PDF without going through some TerraGo (pay for) process, so the “free” toolbar is only slightly free.

  The ability to use GPS within TerraGo toolbar is a good feature, but I have not found anyone that can make it work and TerraGo cannot provide any references for this.

  I wish TerraGo well, but I have not seen the creative technology that you would normally see out of a high-tech company. They have lost many members of their management team over the last 6 months, including CEO, VP of product development, VP business development, VP sales and VP marketing. This is a warning sign to me. Since I have seen no recent news out of them since the Adobe/ESRI announcement, I wonder what their future holds.

• 44 Patrick Graves // Jun 30, 2008 at 3:49 pm

  As one of the founders of TerraGo, I’m pretty excited about the energy here in Atlanta.

  We created GeoPDF over five years ago and tomorrow will be TerraGo’s third birthday. We have somewhere around 200,000 installs of our GeoPDF Toolbar in Adobe Reader and we have six times as many employees as when we started.

  TerraGo’s focus is the end user’s experience when interacting with published maps.

  Having both ESRI and Adobe supporting geospatial PDFs is nothing but goodness for us. It’s confirmation of what we’ve been doing for years and we are well positioned to take advantage of it .

  Look for more to come from TerraGo in the near future.

  P

• 45 governor // Jul 3, 2008 at 7:11 am

  Looks to be a classic case of ESRI trying to go into an area, putting out a product that won’t work efficiently. Like many first time features in ArcGIS, I wouldn’t put my money behind a new product. I’m sticking with TerraGo, as Graves put it, this is a company that has specialized in the GeoPDF.

  ESRI may get it right but I’m sure it’ll be in the 11.0 release.

• 46 moira // Jul 3, 2008 at 5:10 pm

  Hi, I was just wondering how I could export a Geopdffrom ESRI? I’ve heard there was supposed to be a patch or something (it was in their help file online?) but I haven’t seen it……I tried contacting them but it’s been 3 days and I haven’t heard anything?

• 47 unknown // Jul 4, 2008 at 4:36 pm

  Try: http://support.esri.com/index.cfm?fa=downloads.patchesServicePacks.viewPatch&PID=80&MetaID=1407

  Or better yet get the extension from TerraGo for ArcGIS and remember you get what you pay for (ESRI PDF Map is free and substandard compared to TerraGo’s GeoPDF out of ArcGIS)

• 48 tom // Jul 8, 2008 at 4:21 am

  looks like Terrago announced a geospatial alliance agreement with Adobe. interesting …

  http://www.businesswire.com/portal/site/google/?ndmViewId=news_view&newsId=20080707005193&newsLang=en

• 49 Christopher Blough // Jul 8, 2008 at 10:51 am

  Here are the support notes describing the advanced PDF functionality according to ESRI’s web help for 9.3 .

  http://webhelp.esri.com/arcgisdesktop/9.3/index.cfm?id=449&pid=445&topicname=Advanced_PDF_features

  Overall, the functionality comparison between TerraGo’s extension and 9.3’s functionality is very close. For most applications I’m cautiously optimistic it will many of our production needs. However, I’m a little disappointed about the layer flattening which occurs when a raster layer is above other vector/raster layers in TOC. This also holds true when transparencies are applied to layers. BTW…layer flattening is a term used in the Adobe world to describe the merging of several layers into a single layer. Say you have three layers beneath a raster in your TOC. When the PDF file is generated in ESRI’s 9.3, all four layers will be merged into the raster layer. This is not the case with TerraGo’s extension where you can individually control the display of any layer and retain the layer order/control as the mxd was published.

  As was suggested in earlier postings, my guess is that ESRI will improve upon this shortcoming in future releases - hopefully soon.

  PS - I have no formal business relationship with TerraGo or ESRI. I simply share these remarks with the GIS community so we can collectively learn from our shared knowledge. Thanks James for keeping a lively thread!

• 50 Alan Stewart // Jul 9, 2008 at 6:57 am

  Christopher Blough,

  I’m glad that you noticed the deficiencies in the ESRI geoenabled PDF. As you noted, we have (to a large measure) addressed these in our software. We did that at 3.0, a year or so ago. I have only seen output from ESRI’s beta software. Things could change between beta and release, but from what I have seen anyone that wishes to publish significant amounts of attribute data is going to be displeased with ESRI’s implementation of PDF object data. I think they will find ours to be faster and more useful.

  I am pleased that ESRI has come to see the value in geoenabling PDF. I think this is going increase the size of our market. However, ESRI has no strong motivation to give their users the best possible PDF. We do.

• 51 Lefty // Jul 9, 2008 at 7:22 am

  @Alan: I have no strong motivation to pay TerraGo for their extension. Alan, tell me how much Map2PDF costs. I, for the life of me, can’t find it via your website. If we are talking $50ish then maybe I could see value, but if the thing costs much more than that, I can’t be bothered.

• 52 unknown // Jul 9, 2008 at 10:42 am

  $50ish…..ROFL

• 53 not unknown // Jul 9, 2008 at 10:52 am

  So what is it? I see no price anywhere. I’m pretty sure it isn’t $50, but is it $199? $250? $499?

• 54 Adam Estrada // Jul 9, 2008 at 11:15 am

  @Everyone: Get in touch with TerraGo and set up a demo. Ask to see a full product demo to learn that its not just about GeoPDF, its about a pretty robust GIS solution. Also, check out these quick tutorials as they give a pretty good walk through of each product.

  http://www.terragotech.com/support/tutorials.php

  The latest release of Map2PDF for ArcGIS will be out soon as will the latest version of Map2PDF for Raster. There are a lot of improvements to both!

• 55 Lefty // Jul 9, 2008 at 11:20 am

  So no prices without contacting sales folks?

• 56 Righty // Jul 9, 2008 at 1:52 pm

  Do you really think you can buy a GIS solution for $50?! You can’t buy a tank of gas for $50!

• 57 Lefty // Jul 9, 2008 at 2:04 pm

  Huh? A pdf writer need not be expensive.

• 58 Christopher Blough // Jul 9, 2008 at 2:14 pm

  See post #40 for details on government pricing. This will give you some idea of what the product pricing range is at this time.

• 59 GeographicTrek // Jul 9, 2008 at 3:09 pm

  I bought the map2pdf bundle for arcgis 9.x v4 for $2k with a $400/yr maintenance fee. I imagine that TerraGo’s pricing structure has changed a lot recently based on Christopher Blough’s quote and what I paid.

  There is no other mobile GIS/GPS application out there (and yes, the GPS works great for us and we are looking forward to the recording of tracks and routing) for so cheap! For a couple of field workers, there may be an option I’m not aware of that is cheaper, but a mobile GIS/GPS application using Adobe Reader, GeoPDFs, and GPS with the free GeoPDF Toolbar can’t be beat in cost.

  I am extremely dissapointed in TerraGo’s customer service and business tactics and I really don’t like their product at all, but the field workers do and it is cheap compared to other alternatives. I am always looking for other options for similar or less $, so please let me know if you can help me!

  I need a mobile GIS/GPS solution without licensing restrictions that can be utilized by potentially 500+ field workers at the same time, that only cost a few thousand $ total….any suggestions other than GeoPDF? I have tons of great GIS data, but need to disseminate it to hundreds of field workers who can also see where they are in relation to the map using GPS…anything out there other than GeoPDF that can do this for so cheap?? Please let me know!

  Thanks

• 60 Alan Stewart // Jul 9, 2008 at 9:52 pm

  I’m an engineer, not a sales or marketing person. I have no involvement in pricing. I can tell you that writing an intelligent PDF writer as an ArcObjects component consumes considerably more engineering time than a dumb PDF writer based on a Microsoft printer driver. Comparing our ArcGIS product to one of those is an apple-to-orange comparison. Also, the market for ArcGIS products is considerably smaller than the general Windows market.

• 61 Adam Estrada // Jul 10, 2008 at 6:37 am

  @GeographicTrek: TerraGo’s focus is to create rich and usable GIS solutions based on the Adobe Platform. It always has been only now we are official business partners with Adobe. So, you may pay x dollars for an ArcGIS extension that will then give you the ability to use all the other tools and products that TerraGo offers. There are too many applications for this technology to mention…your 1 license to 500+ user example sounds pretty good to me! That is what this company has been providing for years now.

  Other folks have commented on the ArcGIS Server license but what you get is an API that will allow you to customize the technology to fit in to your work flow. When you purchase a single seat of this particular product, you can deploy it as a web app or some other application that gets your data in to the hands of everyone on earth if need be. This is an extreme example but not impossible…

  The direction that TerraGo is going is interesting because now the company/technology is able to leverage all the new or emerging Adobe technology like AIR and LiveCycle. I am actually sitting in a LiveCycle class right now so more on that later.

  I have mentioned in an earlier post that each and every GIS professional out there who questions the technology should ask the sales team for a demo. Heck…go straight to a sales engineer who REALLY knows the technology. Scott Lee gave me a demo this week of a new example data set from Byron Georgia. This is a smaller city in southern Georgia who had a tremendous amount of geospatial data but no GIS. They were able to use TerraGo products to geo-register previously scanned in paper maps to PDF, import CAD data from what seemed to be an ancient version of Microstation, aerial photography, and dozens of photographs of key features that were taken with the Ricoh camera. Roads data and topos were also included in their final Map Book to make a single and seamless data set that could be accessed by anyone who needed it. This included emergency response, tax assessors, Police, Fire, etc…that’s slee@terragotech.com!

  A

Leave a Comment